DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: I’ve been reading one of your more recent columns about if you need to be perfect to get a date. The short answer is “No” (obviously), and I know you’ve covered the topic in detail over the years. I wanted to bounce off that blog post and ask about one specific thing that troubles me, which I also believe is a major contributing factor as to why the “average man” can feel so downtrodden when it comes to their love lives. I know I certainly feel that way at times.
Advertisement
Just like the LW, I’m also not perfect. I am, however, in a good place and consider myself to be a great potential partner for someone and good-looking to boot. These sentiments are shared by those around me. However, despite being “a catch” I can categorically state that women have shown me very little attention in my life and that I have never been approached (and yes, I am factoring in the more subtle ways in which women do this). There have been many years in-between the handful of dates that I have had in my life, with the most recent streak coming up to eight years, even though during that time my social circle has increased and I have hung out with a lot more women. Incidentally, it’s also during this time that I have observed women who have initiated contact and openly flirted with other men. Coincidentally, it’s this disconnect between being a “great guy” and (seemingly) “undesirable” that I find to be disconcerting. I think it’s an experience that many men would share with me.
I wanted to share two specific experiences with you, which may help illustrate why I feel this way.
The first was an experience I had at university. At one point in time I met a guy who was antithetic to the Incel rhetoric, by which I mean short, overweight, unkept, not conventionally attractive, and had an obnoxious personality. He also wasn’t very confident in himself, having gleaned this over time through conversations I had with him, and I knew very few people who found him likable. Nevertheless, this man had no issues with finding women who were interested in dating or sex – he got matches on the apps, he was talking to several women on social media, he was always meeting new women when out on the town (some of whom approached), and sure enough, he had slept with a handful of them. It would later turn out he was a colossal prick that abused a couple of these women, but that didn’t seem to matter because, despite this knowledge being known, he was still getting some action. Obviously this man was nothing to aspire to, but the complete contrast in what he possessed, and what is typically thought of as “attractive”, was something that always perplexed me. The last I heard, he was getting married.
Ironically, it was around this point in my life that I made substantial improvements to myself and started getting a lot of positive reinforcement from others. I also had no romantic or sexual experiences during this period, nor can I recall a time where a woman may have shown even a hint of interest.
A couple of years later, I had another experience with a friend of mine. We had known each other for a few months and, on this occasion, was on a night out with a group of friends. Early into that evening, a man unknown to any of us entered the bar. He was attractive, but by no means a model, nor did he stand out in any particular way from what I could observe. My friend approached this man within moments and asked for his number. She was rejected, but the enthusiasm and speed in which she took that opportunity left no doubt in my mind that she had a strong interest in that individual. It was almost like what you would see in the movies. The most baffling thing for me, however, was later on in the evening when we slept together. It was not until the moment we were alone in my hotel room that I had any idea she was attracted to me, and even then there had been absolutely no build-up to that moment. We hooked up again a couple of times after that night, but there was still no chemistry or flirting between us. It was very…robotic.
A year or so later we met up for an event and ended up having a discussion about what women find attractive in men, as we had been talking about a friend of hers who had been instantly attracted to a guy she met at a cafe. I explained to my friend the confusion I felt over the many years when I have received comments like “I’m surprised you’re single” and “I bet lots of girls fancy you”, with nothing to show for it. My friend responded by saying that I have very good charisma, am very handsome, and that it was clear as day that I am great with women. The discussion didn’t go any further, so I’m not really sure what she had observed about me that led her to this conclusion.
None of this post is to suggest for one second that it’s common place for a guy to have countless women want to get close to him, but it does seem to me that you can have all the positive characteristics and material possessions in the world, and still not have “it”. To try and summarize my points, it would seem that A) There are men out there, many of which do not meet the 6-6-6 criteria, who have a more instant appeal to them, and B) Women seem very capable of approaching these men directly, but are more subtle or even neutral towards other guys they may find attractive. These points are, of course, based on my anecdotes; but I’ve had other similar experiences, and I’m sure this is relatable for a lot of guys.
I am completely bewildered by this. I’ve been out a lot in more recent months and have actively tried to look out for women who may be interested in me, but there’s nothing there. I clearly don’t have “it”, but I don’t even know what “it” is, or how to obtain this mythical status.
So, why is it that some men receive more obvious signs of attraction? What can other men do to put themselves into a position where they may experience that?
Some Guys Have All The Luck
DEAR SOME GUYS HAVE ALL THE LUCK: You’re right, I do talk about this a lot. And one of the ongoing reasons I talk about this a lot is because a lot of guys focus on the wrong things and draw the wrong conclusions.
Let’s start with the obvious one – and one that comes up a lot: the metric you’re using to measure success and attractiveness. Specifically: women initiating a conversation with a guy instead of the guy having to make the first move. This is, hands down, something I hear the most often from guys who talk about never getting any interest from women, and it’s honestly kind of telling.
Here’s the first problem with this metric: how many women are actually doing this. I would point out that your examples are about one woman approaching a dude seemingly unprompted, not “every woman in the bar came up to him”. That alone should tell you something from the jump: that this is about those women, specifically. These were women who a) found that particular person attractive and b) are the sort of person who has no problem making the first move when they’re suitably interested.
The issue here is that you’re drawing a whole lot of universal conclusions about women, rather than recognizing that these are the result of specific circumstances, including a whole lot of things that you’re not aware of. To start with: even in the far-flung future of 2024, a lot of women are uncomfortable making the first move, and with good reason.
Social conditioning is a motherf--ker and even today, women are still socialized that making the first move is too forward or too aggressive. A lot of guys – especially guys who feel very strongly about “traditional” gender roles – will respond badly to women approaching. This can range from assuming far more interest than is actually there and becoming obnoxious and aggressive to thinking that she’s a slut, a sex worker or that this is a trap or a con of some kind.
For another: women are frequently just as shy and just as afraid of rejection as men are. They don’t want to have the experience of trying to talk to a guy only to get frozen out or going over to someone they thought was making eye-contact with them only to realize they were trying to connect with someone else. It isn’t that they don’t find those guys hotter than World War III and wouldn’t love to throw them up against a flat surface and climb them like a tree. It’s that they’re having the same approach anxieties that men do, just with an extra helping of society telling them that it’s a bad move.
There’s also the fact that part of why this approach has been successful for these men is, again, it’s not a universal appeal; it’s not that every woman is falling for them, it’s that these particular women are. Part of why these guys get approached by these women in those venues is because of a little phenomenon us dating coaches call “right person, right place, right time”: that is, they’re those women’s favorite flavor, and they know enough to go where the women they’re most likely to appeal to hang out.
If you’ll forgive an awkward metaphor: if you want to bag an elk, you don’t want to go on a hunting trip in Dubai. If you are into freaky little goth chicks that smell like Fritos bags, you gotta haunt the Hot Topic. If you click best with club kids, you have to go to the clubs. Going where your people are is part of how you make the whole process easier.
Then there’s the classic “assholes get all the women” trope which requires missing something very important: the sort of asshole who’s successful with meeting women is also very successful at hiding the fact that they’re assholes. As we have seen over and over again, just because someone has a reputation in some circles doesn’t mean that everyone knows that they’re assholes or predatory creeps. Quite a few of them are extremely skilled at keeping their reputation contained or finding people who haven’t heard about them yet, convincing their latest target that they’re different than the rest, and there will always be folks who’ll think that this reputation is overblown. It’s hardly as though they go up and say “Hi, I’m six red flags in a trench coat masquerading as a sexy, cultured and erudite man, want to have a disastrous hook up where I’ll leave you feeling cheap and used and wondering why I won’t take your calls any more?”
Then there’s the fact that these guys aren’t just standing there, minding their own business and women are throwing themselves at them. If you’re a regular reader, I’m sure you’ve seen me talk about “approach invitations” and the ways that people use various signals to others that they should come over and say hello. While I talk a lot about the signals that women send, it’s worth remembering that men send those signals as well. Most people who seem to have folks “just coming up to them” out of the clear blue sky have, in fact, been doing a decent amount of eye-f--king, smiling and gesturing at the women first… just as women do with men.
And that’s before we get into the fact that at least some of what you thought of being flirting… likely wasn’t. As it turns out, people across the gender spectrum are just bad at recognizing flirting in general. Sometimes what looks like flirting is just… conversation. And sometimes what starts as conversation turns into flirting.
But honestly, the most important thing here is, again, that this isn’t “dude just stands around, does nothing and women fly into his arms like they were pulled by a giant cartoon magnet with ‘Acme’ branded on the side”. Even in your own anecdotes, that colossal prick was an active participant – using dating apps, talking to women on social media and going out and approaching women himself. You’ve latched on to women approaching him as though that was all he did, rather than something that occasionally happens. You find it more significant because it taps into your own feelings about yourself. You’d do a lot better if you were to ask yourself why you’re comparing yourself against a metric that is uncommon and – by most standards – very, very high. It’s not exactly saying that playing basketball only matters if you get picked for Team USA at the Olympics, but it is pretty close to saying that it doesn’t count unless you go varsity.
I would also point out that you have been chosen by someone whose interest seems to have come out of nowhere. In your own anecdote, you mention that you had no idea your friend was considering sleeping with you until she made the move, and then you hooked up again later on. However, you immediately discount that as being valid because it doesn’t look or feel the way you imagine it would if you were the other guy. You have no real reason to believe this outside of how you feel about yourself. The sex being so-so doesn’t mean that someone’s not necessarily attracted to you; some people just aren’t great lays. Just because a person is aesthetically pleasing doesn’t mean that they’re great in bed; those are two different skill-sets with very little overlap.
So, to sum up: it’s not all women making unprompted approaches, it’s not like these guys do absolutely nothing and when it does happen to you, you disregard it as not being valid.
What I would suggest is that you spend a little time on yourself and your self-image. As you said: part of why your unappealing acquaintance does well is his own rock-solid confidence and self-assurance despite not being classically handsome. I would also suggest that maybe you’re expecting a level of attention that’s unreasonable as a meaningful metric and is causing you to miss out on people’s interest simply because you don’t see it or believe it when you do. I strongly suspect that a lot of the problem you’re having is that you’re looking for the highest possible signs of interest because you don’t want to risk making a move and getting shot down. The problem is: you end up missing out on 95% of opportunities because you’re holding out for that 5% as the only one that “really counts”.
Which leads me to my next and final point: success comes most often to those who put themselves in success’ path. The people who are the best at meeting and dating women are the ones who are actively looking and talking to folks, frequently in many different ways, and are open to many different definitions of success. Knowing where your people are and spending time in those spaces, going out and talking to people yourself while also making a point of being more approachable and inviting are all going to be key to finding folks who’re going to be just as excited to talk to you as you would be to talk to them.
Otherwise, you’re going to just be sitting around, wondering why doing nothing doesn’t seem to increase your odds while the people who do the work are finding results.
Good luck.
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Bottom of Form
Top of Form
Bottom of Form
Top of Form
Bottom of Form
Top of Form
Bottom of Form
Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com