DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: My wife has a “work husband”, a co-worker she has a close and emotionally intimate friendship with. I normally wouldn’t be bothered, but I feel like it’s starting to cross lines that I’m not comfortable with. Her friend is very flirty with her, in texts, emails and in person. This isn’t a secret; my wife told me about it as they were starting to become friends and I’m confident she would never cheat on me. Ever since they started getting close, she would offer to let me see the texts or emails, though I’ve never taken her up on the offer. I appreciate her wanting to reassure me, but I’ve always felt that either one trusts one’s wife or they don’t, and I trust her.

I’m not even offended that she enjoys being flirted with. I’m sure I would if I had a female friend who was as flirty with me. But not only is there a level to which it becomes too much, but also when it feels like an outright display of disrespect or a challenge to me, somehow.

The thing is, it’s not just at work, behind closed doors or in private. He’ll flirt with her in front of me, while I’m standing right there. There have been many times at office parties or other events I’ve attended with my wife and he apparently has no issue with talking about how hot she is in that dress or how “if she wasn’t married…”, occasionally with an elbow or a nudge and saying “this guy knows what I mean, right?” 

Frankly, it bothers me, because while I trust my wife completely, this behavior feels disrespectful to me and to our relationship. I can’t explain how without sounding like the most irrational kind of man, but it always feels like he does it deliberately in order to imply that he’s more of a man than me.

I don’t know how I should respond to this. My friends have suggested that I should tell him to back off. One even asked why I was “putting up with this”, said that he was making me a cuck and implied that I should just punch him. Obviously I don’t want to get violent over this and I don’t want to come across as jealous or insecure, especially since I know she’s not doing anything wrong. On the other hand, I feel like her friend is crossing boundaries in a way that I find incredibly inappropriate to a degree that feels like an insult and I don’t know how to bring it up in a way that doesn’t make me seem controlling or paranoid. He’s her friend after all, not mine, and I don’t want to be yet another jealous husband who regulates who his wife is allowed to talk to or who she can be friends with.

I guess my question is: what is the best way to handle this? Are my friends right? Should I talk to him and tell him to knock it off? If I tell my wife about it, how do I make it clear that I’m offended rather than threatened? Do I even have the right to say that she should do something about this, or is this something I should just try to let go of?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sincerely,

Concerned About Dialogue Dilemma

DEAR CONCERNED ABOUT DIALOGUE DILEMMA: I feel like I shouldn’t have to say this but for the love of God, sanity and your wife’s career, don’t start a fight with this guy. Not only is that whole “don’t talk to my girl or else” macho bulls--t posturing something you’d expect out of an Archie comic from the 50s, it’s also deeply embarrassing and it’s not going to help in any way, shape or form. It won’t work the way you (or your friend) think it would, and there’s no upside to it no matter how it plays out.

Leaving aside drawbacks like “brought up on assault charges” and “getting your wife fired because you threatened her coworker”, if you threaten him but never follow through if he does keep flirting with her, you come off as impotent. If you do follow through, you come across as violent and unhinged, whether you actually win the fight or not. And in any case, responding with threats of violence just tells everyone that you feel like this guy is a threat to you somehow – whether to your marriage or just your status as a man.

(Also, I feel like someone should do a check of your friend’s browser history, because I have a lot of questions what sites and YouTube channels he’s been visiting. But that’s another topic entirely.)

So here’s the thing: I have no idea if this guy is actually playing f--k f--k status games and implying that he’s a bigger swinging dick than you or if some of his comments are some sort of weird “we’re all guys here, we can all appreciate your wife’s a smokeshow” camaraderie thing. The cynical part of me suspects that this is a deliberate move to draw your attention to what he’s doing. It may be part of said games or it may be him trying to see how far he can push things like a raptor testing the fences.

But the why of it doesn’t really matter. Being that flirty with someone in front of their partner is weird, like the guy hit his head and thinks he’s actually a character in Mad Men or something. As I said: I don’t know if he’s disrespecting you, but he’s definitely being disrespectful… to you and to your wife.

Here’s the thing: I talk a lot about flirting without intent and how people will flirt because flirting is fun and it’s nice to know that folks think you’re hot. I don’t think a flirty friendship is a big deal or even threatening, even when the other person is in a relationship. But one of the unwritten rules of flirting without intent is that there are lines that you don’t cross, especially if one or both of the people involved is in a monogamous relationship. One of those lines is acting like this in front of someone’s partner and especially in public.

Even under the best of circumstances (such as it is), this makes things intensely awkward for anyone with even a modicum of emotional and social intelligence. Even if, for some reason, the partner or spouse isn’t bothered by it, this has the potential to make trouble for the person begin flirted with. Acting like this in public means that someone hasn’t considered that other people are also seeing this. You’re not in some zone of privacy where sound doesn’t travel; there are still other people who are going to witness this and draw all sorts of conclusions from it. Tossing a big hunk of red meat to the office gossip pool is a s--tty thing to do to a friend and runs the risk of someone saying the magic words “hostile work environment”.

Now, in the moment, I think it’s entirely fine to say “I don’t appreciate comments like that. I find them rude and inappropriate. Please don’t make them in front of me.” Keeping it simple, straightforward and about that behavior in that moment can make it clear the guy has overstepped without your coming across like an insecure jock in an 80s teen boner jam. I would recommend that you keep a response like that in your back pocket for next time, if there is a next time. If the guy falls back on the “hey, it was just a joke” defense – as habitual line-steppers so often will – then all you have to say is “it wasn’t funny. Please don’t make comments like that in front of me”. No need to debate the nature of the comment or how it was meant, just reiterate that you don’t want him making those comments in front of you.

In the moment is one thing, though, and after the fact is another. I don’t think there’s much use in pulling the guy aside and saying something later; it won’t have the same effect or impact, nor do I don’t think it’s your place to do so. As you said: it’s your wife’s relationship, not yours. It’s on her to draw boundaries on her friendships.

What I do think is that you should talk to your wife about this. This is a time when you want to use a modified version of the Awkward Conversation; you want to carve out time to talk about it with your wife and to explain precisely what her friend is doing and why it bothers you. You should make it clear that it’s not the flirting that bothers you, that you trust her, that you understand it’s her friendship, not yours, and that you trust her to establish and enforce whatever boundaries she sees fit with her friends. It’s flirting with her in front of you, in public and drawing attention to the fact that he’s doing it that’s the problem. You find it disrespectful to the both of you, and you don’t appreciate his doing it. I would also say that you don’t want to step on your wife’s toes by getting involved in her friendship and you would like her input on the best way to resolve this.

That last part’s important, because she’s the one who knows her friend the best and understands the dynamic of her friendship with him in ways that you don’t. She’s better positioned to say “I think this would be the best way to handle it,” and navigate whatever changes to her friendship with him that might be necessary. It’s also a subtle reminder that you trust not just her judgement, but her opinion and insight.

I realize this may not be the most satisfying way of handling things, especially when it feels like the guy is insulting you to your face. Calling it out when it happens is one thing; addressing it after the fact or in general is a little trickier. The possibility of messiness is pretty strong. But coming to the discussion with your wife from a place of trust and collaboration – you’re partners, after all – is the best approach.

Good luck.

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com

DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: I saw your “Flurry of dating advice” post on Google, and one guy said pretty awkwardly that he was into Asian goth girls because he associates paleness with Japanese horror.

The thing is, I more or less agree with that guy. I’m not goth myself, but I do like that subculture, and might make some new additions to my wardrobe. I’m sort of into pale women in general because I associate pale skin with mortality, the supernatural, and horror. Some female characters I’m a fan of have this trait and and something to do with these themes: Death of The Endless (DC’s “The Sandman”), Frederica “The Cleaner” Sawyer (Black Lagoon), Tomie Kawakami (Junji Ito), and Morticia Addams (The Addams Family). For a pale male character I’m a fan of, John Kramer (Saw).

Essentially, I agree with the Gothic subculture; it appreciates paleness aesthetically because it represents macabre themes such as death, mortality, the supernatural (think vampires, ghosts, the undead), the afterlife, and decay.

And just like that other guy, I love horror; it’s my bread and butter. My idea for a date would be playing Silent Hill together, or reading horror manga together late at night while H.P. Lovecraft ambience plays in the background.

I’m essentially asking if it’s normal for horror fans, male or female, to find pale skin attractive? Is it normal to find beauty in pallor? Because this makes two people who do. Is it normal, and do you have any good dating tips for me?

Spooky Is Sexy

DEAR SPOOKY IS SEXY: You’re asking the wrong question, SIS, because whether this is “normal” or not is ultimately irrelevant. “Normal”, in the context that you’re referring to, just means “in the mainstream”. Attractiveness and physical beauty is as much cultural as it is biological. While, as a general rule, we tend to find things like facial symmetry and outward signs of physical health attractive, a lot of what’s considered “beautiful” is going to be defined by outside influences – your culture, your peers, your life experiences, and so on.

Standards of beauty have varied wildly over time and around the world. Things that one culture or people saw as the epitome of beauty often would weird out others – blackened teeth in Southeast Asian and Oceanic cultures in the 16th and 17th century would be repulsive in 18th Century France, while the powdered wigs, parchment-white faces with roughed cheeks and lips and fake beauty marks in Versailles would seem almost freakish in sub-Saharan African communities.

All of them would consider what they found beautiful to be “normal”. They might find other cultures beauty practices and standards exotic and intriguing or weird and upsetting… but it would be different and not “normal”. It’s only with the advent of modern mass-media that we’ve seen certain beauty standards become more dominant; that’s less about being “normal” so much as an increase in monoculture via cultural hegemony.

This is why wondering whether what you find attractive is “normal” misses the point. It’s not about being normal, it’s about understanding who you are and what you’re into. You dig pale skin, dark hair and the morbid and macabre. Your ideal partner is someone who appreciates goth culture, horror media and controlled scares. It means that your dating pool is going to be a little smaller than it would be if you were more into aesthetics that were more widely popular, but that’s different from being abnormal. Think of it like candy corn; a lot of people hate it, and a lot of people crave it. As the meme goes: there are people who will adore you for the exact same reasons as other people reject you. You are someone’s candy corn (derogatory), and someone else’s candy corn (complimentary).

Go find the communities and hangouts where you’ll find other folks with a taste of the macabre, unnerving, grotesque or scary hanging out. Worry less about what’s normal and put your focus on finding your candy corn.

Good luck.

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com

DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: Allow me to start with the caveat that I have had some relationships in the past (2, one of 2 months and one of 3 months), those were at this point more then 15 years ago

I’m also basically the standard 36YO nerd, like me mappies, like me MTG, like me memes, like me vtubers, etc, simple as, I also work, own a house and a car, have friends that I see every few months, family that likes me and I like them, basically all standard stuff, regular john normal

However, I do feel a bit lost at this particular point: I’m still a f--king teenager who’s crushing on every woman he sees,

It’s kind of infuriating, “huh, this woman is interacting with me, I wonder if she’ll let me stick my penis inside of her”, this is 1) super distracting and 2) mega disrespectful, she’s her own person, probably with more capabilities than me, and not just a slab of meat for me release my urges into

So, I’ve decided to do something about that, I’ve lost 35kg (77 pounds for the yanks) and have started to go to a voice coach so I can sound less annoying (a complaint I’ve had over the years, I’ve even been seeing a psychologist every week

So why would I need advice from you I hear you wonder? Well, it’s always been kind of hammered into me that relations need to happen organically, boy meets girl leads to man meats woman (the only reason I’ve been called boring is because I stop myself from making jokes like this in regular company), basically 2 people talk and they both like that, at some point they touch each other and eventually they get into a relationship

Here’s my problem: I’ve never deliberately touched another human being, moved 10cm closer yes, but outright touching? no, I once even jumped when a woman touched my thigh during a card game since that’s never happened before (or since).

I once told a friend I’ve been flirting with a particular girl and he said “you flirt like a wet puppy” and another said that I looked like someone who’s crawling on top of closets with my phone held high in a desperate attempt to achieve connection, there was even a time where a friend said to my face: “you don’t really think you can seduce X?” to be fair to her, this had been going on for a few months already so I think she was just the messenger, anyways, people evidently have been bothered by my flirting style which is why I stopped for a few years

Anyways, long story short: if I were to meet a woman that I’d like and we’d to get along should I then consciously decide to touch her on the shoulder or above arm in an attempt to get closer to her or should I just keep on meeting women until I find someone I’d put my hand on her shoulder without thinking about doing so even if I’ve so far never done so for the thousands of people I’ve met over the years?

Kind regards, and hope to hear from you soon, 

How Do I Start?

DEAR HOW DO I START: The way you frame your question is getting in the way of what you’re actually asking about. Your letter is about touching someone, but then there’s what you’re actually asking: whether flirting is something that you should just “know” how to do, or if it’s something that you have to learn.

And that part’s easy: flirting is a skill, and skills don’t come naturally to us. Skills are developed through deliberate practice; that is, you get better by doing the thing you’re trying to get better at. If you were a bird, that would be one thing; you’d have an instinct to do a funky little dance and display your vibrant plumage, build a nest or otherwise put on a mating display. Those aren’t taught to birds as chicks by parents; they’re hardwired into them by nature of being birds.

You, presumably, are a human, though, and part of being human is that we have to consciously develop the skills we want to cultivate. You wouldn’t expect to be an expert at football from the first moment you set foot on the pitch; it takes time and effort, from learning the basics, running drills over and over again, playing in scrimmages and so on. Some people may have aspects that give them an advantage in learning those skills – they may have better coordination, faster reflexes, or a greater natural athleticism – but they still have to put in the time to actually develop the skills to become a top-tier player.

So, it is with flirting. We aren’t born knowing how to flirt; we have to figure out how to flirt and we have to get better at it by actually flirting. And that means that, by default, we have to be willing to flirt badly at first. You may know the broad-brush strokes, the same way that you know what being good at football looks like, but that’s not the same as being able to do it. You’re going to be ignorant of a lot of the fundamentals, which are appropriate for the moment, and how to use them the most effectively. 

So, yeah, you’re going to suck at first and you’re going to have to be ok with sucking at it. �That means accepting that we’re going to make mistakes, misread whether other people are flirting with us and flirt in ways that don’t work for the person we’re trying to flirt with or that are incongruent with who we are as individuals.

And that’s ok! Everyone starts at the same place when they’re trying to develop a skill: we all suck at it at first, no matter who we are. David Beckham didn’t come out of the womb with a right foot blessed by God, any more than Michael Jordan was born able to dunk like gravity simply didn’t apply to him. But as the sage once said: sucking at something is the first step to being kinda good at it.

This doesn’t mean that you should be laser-focused on figuring out when, where and how to touch someone that you’re interested in, although that is one of the ways people flirt. You want to figure out how you flirt, what flirting looks like when it’s in alignment with who you are as a person. The way I flirt is going to look different from the way you flirt, because we’re different people, with different personalities. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. Figuring out your style is part of the point of practicing.

The thing to understand is that flirting is, at the end of the day, a way of signaling to someone that you are attracted to them and that you like them. Your goal isn’t to get them to like you as much as it is to invite them and encourage them to flirt back. The act of flirting is about interaction, about two people sharing a moment together, building a connection and deciding if, when and how they want to move that connection forward.

A lot of people, for example, will flirt for fun, but without intent. That is, they’re flirting because flirting is fun and it feels good to know that someone likes you and finds you attractive and to play around a bit with those feelings. They flirt for the same reason we play games – for the sake of enjoying something with another person. They may find that person attractive, but they don’t intend to take that connection any further than that moment. Others will, because that mutual attraction builds upon itself and they would like to see where it goes.

And this is where flirting acts as a filter, as much as a means of signaling, gauging and building interest. Someone who doesn’t flirt or enjoy flirting the way that you do is likely someone who isn’t necessarily compatible with you. If you’re someone who likes wordplay and teasing, someone who doesn’t like it isn’t going to respond well to it. Some people appreciate boldness and directness. Others feel their heart melt for someone who’s a little shy and adorkable but trying anyway. Playing that game together helps you find the people who are similar to you… and we’re far more attracted to people who are similar to us than our opposites.

So, if, as you mention in your letter, people are annoyed by how you flirt, it’s worth asking whether you’re flirting in a way that’s congruent with who you are, whether you’re flirting with people who are ultimately incompatible with you, or whether it’s the lack of practice that’s getting in the way.

In other words: it’s a skill issue.

It may well be that your flirting doesn’t look like the way your friends’ does and that’s ok. It’s about finding what works for you, not imitating them.

I do recommend getting comfortable with touch and with touching, in part because knowing how to read touch is invaluable. Some people are just touchy-feely types; others dislike it except with very specific folks. By getting comfortable and practiced at it, you get better at recognizing when your touch is welcomed and when you should hold back; after all, you don’t want to touch someone who doesn’t want to be touched or in a way that makes them uncomfortable or upset, any more than you’d want them to do that to you.

But for now, what I would suggest is doing some thinking about what flirting would look like for you and finding ways to practice it as you go about your day-to-day life. This doesn’t mean you should be acting like an oversexed cartoon skunk everywhere you go, so much as just finding opportunities to make little flirty gestures or comments like sonar pings and see what comes back. If you get a positive response, you can flirt a little more or turn up the volume a bit; if you don’t, then you know to dial things back. There’ll be times when you may be inappropriate and, in those moments, you should apologize and dial it back. That’s an important part of learning as well.

The more you do this, the better you’ll get at reading the room and reading the individual. That’ll make it that much easier to find your people and let them know: you’re into them, and would they like to find out if they’re into you as well?

Good luck. 

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com