Ask Dr. Nerdlove

DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: I would like to be able to approach women in hobby group, especially since I’m told repeatedly that it is basically the end-all-be-all way to meet women. This always comes with the caveat that you can’t just go there and ask women out right away, or ask every woman there out, or else they’ll think I’m creepy, desperate, I only see the place as a meat market, etc.

If I go to hobby groups and I enjoy them, I would also like to be able to show my face there and keep doing it if I ask out a woman and she’s not into me, and not be seen as the creepy guy. So my questions are:

1. How much time is good enough between starting to go to the hobby and asking a woman I’m interested in there out?

2. How many women can I ask out there before I look like a desperate weirdo?

3. How much time between asking women out is enough?

4. How much time is enough time between a new woman I’m attracted to joining a group and me asking her out and she’ll still feel welcome in the group and not creeped out on?

Creeper No Creeping

DEAR CREEPER NO CREEPING: Before I get too into your question CNC, I want you to take a look at what I wrote to Not A Coffeeshop Creep yesterday. As I told NACC: the thing that makes guys creepy in cases like this tends to be the attitude of “I’m here to get laid, everyone else’s interests don’t matter.” In hobby groups, Meetups and the like, the biggest issue isn’t whether folks ask someone out on a date, it’s dudes who try to treat it like a Sex ATM. If you are, say, at a yoga class, you can be fairly assured that pretty much all the women there are there to do yoga, not be hit on by dudes… and yet there’s always a surfeit of men who are there specifically to try to pick up chicks for a little Salute to the Sun if you know what I mean.

Now, I’m a big proponent of meeting people by leveraging your passions. It’s much easier to make friends and increase your social circle when you find your people — the folks who share your interests and hobbies and have the same (or compatible) passions and drives. Not only does this increase the likelihood of your having deeper and more meaningful commonalities than just a mutual interest in, say, tabletop gaming, but those shared interests are an instant ice breaker and conversation starter. However, this doesn’t work if you show up at your local gaming store’s RPG night, circling like a horny shark. Nor, for that matter, does it work if you’re the guy who hits on the new folks when they arrive, before they’ve had a chance to be warned about that particular missing stair.

So with that in mind, I want to point out a miscalculation in your thinking. You’re looking for rules about timing and hard numbers that would make certain behaviors acceptable, and that’s a mistake. There isn’t going to be a universally applicable amount of time that will make behavior non-creepy, nor a number you can’t go over. The thing that makes someone creepy isn’t whether they wait for the cooldown to end before they fire off their next Jealous Girlfriend opener, it’s what their behavior is communicating to others.

If we go back to the yoga class I mentioned earlier, a dude who is going from woman to woman asking her out, he’s communicating two things. First: that he’s there to get laid, not to do yoga — which is already a problem in those classes. Second, however, is that by hitting on woman after woman, what he’s telling folks is that he’s not interested in them as people, he’s interested in them as things he can f--k. Maybe the “getting to know them as a person” will come while he’s trying to get into her Lululemons, but in that moment, she’s a warm body first and a person second.

Now, if, at that same class, we have a guy who’s there to do yoga, who makes smalltalk with folks before and after class and generally gets to know folks and — in the course of chit-chatting with people — catches a vibe from someone who seems cool and is into him too? Then it’s perfectly natural to say “hey, I’m really enjoying talking to you. I’m going to $COOL_THING next week; I think you’d really enjoy it and I’d love to take you.” That’s not being weird or creepy; that’s someone who, while practicing his hobby, has met someone he gets along with and is seeing if there’s some mutual chemistry and mutual interest.

Of course, if that guy where to then ask out someone else at the next class… well, again, we’re back to “dude is looking for a warm body to stick himself into” territory.

This is why, rather than looking at this as running out the clock or trying to go by hard numbers, you want to focus on enjoying whatever the group is for and getting to know people. When you’re first meeting people at whatever interest group you join, you don’t know anything about them other than they like the same stuff you do. Yes, they may be attractive… but that, in and of itself, doesn’t mean anything. You don’t know if you two are compatible, if you like talking to her or even whether she’s worth your time. And rolling up on her to get a date when you barely know her signals that you’re really there to get laid.

So rather than worry about numbers, focus simply on meeting people, making connections and friendships and see where things go. If you and someone get along and you’re getting hints of mutual chemistry and interest, then sure, ask them out on a date. If they say no, take their “no” with good grace and continue to be the same cool, friendly and social guy you were before. If you were to then go and immediately ask someone else out… well, that’s where you could start getting into trouble. But, again, if you realize later on that someone else you find fun and interesting is also giving you “would like to go on a date with me” vibes, then that’s not weird or creepy. That’s just a natural progression of interest.

It’s not creepy to ask someone out, nor does being turned down mean that you can no longer show your face any more. What is creepy is when you end up making it clear that you’ve got a hole marked “girlfriend” that you’re trying to fill with any available person or an empty spot in your bed and you aren’t particular with who goes in it. Hitting on everyone in the group is going to make folks uncomfortable. So will bouncing back and forth between folks like a hornt up pinball. But if you’re making friends and connections with people and finding that things are progressing in a flirty or romantic direction, then that’s natural and normal.

I realize that having absolute numbers can be reassuring by giving you a sense of control. But at the end of the day, people aren’t computer programs. There will be folks who’re ok with being asked out two weeks after you’d been turned down by someone else, and there will be folks who think that’s weird. Focus more on enjoying the group for what it is and making genuine connections with people, rather than finding a girlfriend right away. Not only will everyone be much more comfortable, but those relationships  — if any — will be authentic, natural and far more satisfying than just shotgunning your way through and hoping that if you throw enough lead in the air that you’ll hit something.

Good luck.

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com

DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: I saw a video on TikTok about approaching people during the day and am now trying to figure something out.

My understanding was that generally, women would rather not be approached by men in just any public setting because they view us always as a potential threat, which I think is totally 100% fair. And I always took that as meaning we should avoid talking to women unless we’re in an appropriate time or place, which is somewhere more social than a coffee shop. I have social anxiety so I’ve never been comfortable talking with anybody of any gender, but I’ve always kept that in mind if I ever decide to break out of my shell.

But I’m getting from that video and the replies to it is that anyone who got that message from women are misinterpreting what they’ve been saying about harassment and boundaries and that you don’t have to worry about coming across as a creep if you’re not a creep.

So is there any truth to what I’ve heard before? And is it possible she just has a unique experience? I should mention that I’ve never made acquaintances in person any place where I wasn’t obligated to meet people, like school or family gatherings, so how people meet other people in public is a mystery to me. Can also count the number of times in one hand I’ve been inside a coffee shop.

Not A Coffeeshop Creep

DEAR NOT A COFFEESHOP CREEP: Before I get to your question, NACC, let me sum up the video for everyone else since not everyone’s gonna have the ability to watch or follow the link. The TikToker, Monstersincooperated is responding to a comment from user CrypticCorvus about how TikTok is like Starbucks and how uncomfortable they would be if someone came up and started hitting on them. Monstersincooperated is apparently perplexed by this because — as she puts it — how did they think people functioned before the Internet and that it’s normal for folks to meet their partners while out living their lives.

So with all that out of the way, I have to agree with Monstersincooperated (yes, that’s how she spelled it) on this: yes, it’s normal to talk to people during your day to day, out-and-about life. In fact, I’m pretty firmly on the record that more people should be cultivating those in-person social skills. I’m also fairly firmly on the record that a lot of guys — especially shy, socially inexperienced guys — vastly overestimate how creepy they’re being, misinterpret what folks are saying about creepers online and don’t quite get why one person is creepy and the other isn’t. They also tend to overstate how “bad” things are when they mess-up; they tend to fall into the Worst Superpower Ever: Worst Case Scenario Vision, where what starts with “hi, how are you?” ends with them having to get plastic surgery, change their name and leave the state, never to return again.

The issue that folks tend to have isn’t about the concept of talking to strangers or flirting with people they meet and are attracted to, it’s the way that people treat them. The single biggest reason why a lot of people — mostly, but not limited to, women and femme-presenting people — have issues with strangers coming up and talking to them is because the folks rolling up on them don’t spend a moment’s consideration about their interest. The folks who are approaching them haven’t gauged the social context of the situation, they haven’t considered whether the person they’re approaching wants to talk to someone, nor are they concerned about that person’s comfort or or even whether they have time to talk to someone.

As an example, a lot of PUAs will make a big deal out of doing what they call ‘street approaches’ — that is, trying to stop women who are going about their day. Leaving aside that this isn’t how the vast majority of people meet their partners, this sort of approach is both painfully inefficient and incredibly annoying for the folks being approached. Consider, if you will, what it’s like when you have to run a gauntlet of folks trying to get you to donate money or sign their petition or take their mix CDs. Now imagine that with strangers who are just flinging d--k at you and trying to convince you to date them.

There’s a similar issue when guys try to talk to women wearing headphones, who are reading or who are otherwise busy. They’re ignoring multiple “not interested in talking to people” signs — the book, the headphones, etc. — and have, instead, decided that their desire to talk to her overrides her “Do Not Disturb” message.  It doesn’t matter if the person trying to talk to them is Brad Pitt, Idris Elba or Machine Gun Kelly; folks who persist in trying to get your attention when you want to be left alone are sending a message, and that message is “your desires and boundaries mean nothing to me.”

Now the issues that guys like you, NACC, who are well-meaning but shy or inexperienced get hung up on is the concept of “the approach”. The mistake a lot of folks make is that they treat this as somehow different or separate from just, y’know, talking to people. This actually causes problems on a number of levels. When you see “making an approach” as being inherently different from other interactions, it changes your outlook, your behavior, even your body language. You can sometimes see when guys shift from social mode to “ok, going to go hit on this person” mode, which…  well, unless you’ve had a lot of practice, it can really put people off. The person doing the approach is usually not as smooth or behaving authentically, and that can feel a little weird. Plus, it’s usually pretty obvious that they’re getting ready to hit on someone, and that puts other folks on their guard, especially during the day. It also encourages a counterproductive mindset in the person doing the approaching. A lot of the time, they feel like they have to “prove themselves” to the person they’re hitting on, despite the fact that they don’t know anything about that person other than they’re attractive. So not only are you hitting on them, but you’re doing so from an almost comedically insecure place.

But the issue isn’t the “going to talking to strangers” part, it’s the “I’m going to go hit on this person” part. The vibe they’re putting off is “I want to convince this stranger to start a romantic or sexual relationship with me, despite having known me for less than an hour.” Not only is this off-putting at, say, a Starbucks, but it’s goddamn difficult to do under the best of circumstances. That’s just not how most folks roll.

There is, however, a vast difference between trying to hit on a person you just met and just starting a conversation with them. It may seem like these are just two different faces of the same coin, but they come from entirely different places. A person who’s angling to get someone’s phone number (or connect on WhatsApp or Snapchat or what-have-you) has a different vibe and behavior from someone who’s just being social. Someone who’s just making conversation is usually much more relaxed, goal-agnostic and shows genuine interest in the other person. That’s a very different feeling — one that’s far less likely to put someone on their guard.

Think of it as the difference between someone making casual small-talk with you while you’re waiting for your morning latte and that same person trying to convince you to go on a date with them.

Through my years of study and practice, I’ve found that just being willing to be social and talk to people without an agenda goes a long, long way towards making you more successful at dating. I’ve started multiple relationships — at coffeeshops, even — just by striking up conversations with women I met that day. The key was that I was genuinely interested in knowing more about them — if they were drawing, I was curious to see what they were working on, for example — and focused more on being in the moment than on anything else. This meant that our interaction was more genuine, more authentic and not angled towards getting something from them. If we vibed, then great! I would at least offer to stay in contact and talk later, when it might be more appropriate to ask them out on a date. If not, hey, as the sage once said: “sharing tea with a fascinating stranger is one of life’s great pleasures”.

Now to be sure: part of being social and talking to strangers means working on your social calibration. You want to make sure you’re talking to folks who are interested in talking, not people who are determined to get work done or who want to be left alone. Someone idly browsing the shelves at your local bookstore is more likely to be willing to talk books with someone than if you came across that same person head down over their laptop. However, it’s possible to get a conversation going, even if someone cute is working at the next table over from you at the coffeeshop. “Hey, could you watch my laptop while I run to the bathroom/get a refill/ place an order” is normal, even expected behavior; it’s part of the coffeeshop code of behavior, really. From there, when you get back, you can say thanks and introduce yourself. At that point, either they’ll indicate that they’re interested in talking to you, or that they want to get back to work.

If you want to get over your fear of being an accidental creeper, then do yourself a favor and look for opportunities to practice being social. You have chances to have brief, non-important conversations with folks all over the place, from standing in line for coffee to posting up at the counter at your local diner and making small talk with the folks around you. The more comfortable you get with just being social  — without an agenda — then the easier it is to have those conversations with folks when it “counts”… no matter where you are.

Good luck.

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com

DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: I just found your column and man, I’m going to be using the crap out of it. Your ability to not sugar coat anything is refreshing, and I’m wondering if you can help me out. You see, all I see myself is as average, and while topics such as ‘How to be interesting‘ and others are good, I never feel as if it relates to my situation.

What is my situation? I’m a nerdy guy in high school (or what you would call high school anyhow) and while I’m not particularly looking for any relationship, I never feel like I could ever be in one. My Crush is way, way out of my league (not in a popular clique way, just in I assume I wouldn’t get the time of day and I’ve waited to long to make a move) and all the time I feel obscenely average. Sure, I get better grades than a lot of people, which then makes me feel guilty that I whine, but I don’t feel much in the self-worth department.  TDP doesn’t help.

TDP is Too Damn Perfect, I guy I am friends with but half the time want to rip his throat out. You see, I sit next to him in lessons, and every time he recites a particular anecdote, or performs some amazing magic trick or slight of hand, I want to punch him in the face then inevitably be destroyed by his black belt Tae Kwon Do skills (After mockingly berating my for calling it karate).

See where I’m going with this? From my perspective this guy has it all, a string of romantic interests, good sports skills, way better at all subjects, general knowledge, and most infuriatingly, nerdy interests that he can dive into (For example, what for what I class as being a die-hard fan he would beat me in a trivia contest as a person who is only slightly interested). He’s a good guy, and obviously not trying to make me feel like s--t, but he does. If I ever brig up the subject he’ll just go on about how he’s not the best and he hates that and bitch about it. Similar to what I do but, hey ho, I’ve never had a real relationship (move on to that later….)

It really doesn’t help that TDP is a member of the band I’m in (It’s definitely not mine). Playing bass is about the only interesting thing I do (And in music terms that’s still the dullest), and while I can play, I only have a basic knowledge of actual playing, rather than anything technical. So when TDP comes in talking about scales and fancy Italian words I want to hit him with his drumsticks. To top it all off he can play bass at what I perceive to be the same as my, which brings me out in red. 

Usually I can suppress this anger and just hang around him. But every so often he’ll say one harmless comment which I take as particularly condescending and and up pissed for the rest of the day. I know I need to get over myself and live my own life, but this cycle and getting pissed and leaving it needs to stop and your the harsh talking kind of guy to do it. I feel insecure, worthless, and end up contemplating-  What is my chance with a woman if they can pick the superior guy next to me?

Now, I’ll mention relationships now. I’ve had pretty much no action in my life. I tried to get to know someone over Facebook (pathetic I know) and that just fizzled, and while I’ve had a couple offers, they’ve all been from people I consider friends, nothing else there. The only action I’ve ever had is at a boozy party. My mates decided it was time they really got pissed, and being boring as hell, I didn’t like the idea at all. Still, I went, barely had a drop, but the interesting thing is a drunk chick (who I don’t know) coming onto me. Seeing because I’m lame and old-fashioned, I did not want to take advantage of her when drunk, so just pushed her away. At school I was getting ribbed by my friends and she was apologizing profusely, noting how she gave ‘a bad first impression’ and ‘would want to talk as normal people’. End of the week my band was playing an open mike night and she and her friends were there. After a crap load of peer pressure, I was pushed towards her sitting alone (I follow some rules) and we talked. And kissed. I was pretty on top of the world- first kiss, first chance of a relationship, I was clapping myself on the back for not taking advantage…

Then it fell apart. I hung out with her and her friends for the day a few days later (Staying in contact before then) and it was okay at first, but she seemed distant later on in retrospect. Day after, by text of all things, she confesses how she was only liking me as a friend and it wasn’t going to work out.

Fan-bloody-tastic. 

In retrospect I was more into the idea of a relationship than one specifically with her, but still it hurt. No-one seemed to ask about it at all, so I kept it bottled up. This came with the insecurities of thinking if one day is all it takes for someone to not stand me, then I must be unattractive as hell. Plus I haven’t talked to her since then, so I really have no closure whatsoever.  To bring it full circle though, she mentioned how someone was annoyed at her for coming onto me in the first place, because the other girl had a thing for me,  and then my crush, as a passing comment, noted she hated her (The drunk). My brain put two and two together, and I came to the conclusion my crush may like me!

Of course that is more wishful thinking than if your house fell down Punk’d will come out and laugh at you. I know it is extremely unlikely it’s connected, yet it has brought my infatuation with my crush to new heights. My lack of self esteem, proneness to jealousy, hatred of the social hierarchy, fear of being a fool, and knowing I’ve missed my chance prevents me from doing anything. Besides, as you’ve said, high-school romances suck (though not from where I’m standing…)  

So what can you prescribe Doc.? I am assuming a bottle of Man-the-f--k-up and some Get-the-f--k-over-yourself  are going to be useful, with some added Believe-in-yourself and that snake oil. It’s been good to vent anyhow, I just want to know, when the hell can I stop comparing myself to others and start getting to places with women? I’m guessing college, but that’s just too far away…

Pretty Bloody Average

DEAR PRETTY BLOODY AVERAGE: You answered your own question, PBA. You’re in high-school. I’ve written about dealing with dating and crushes in high-school before, but the short version is: quit worrying about it. I know it seems like your entire universe now and escape seems like a lifetime away, but the purpose of high-school is to lay the groundwork for who you’re going to grow into. Spend less time worrying about getting action now and more time putting in the hours that will lead to you being knee-deep in dates later.

But that’s not what I wanted to talk to you about, Bloody.

I wanted to talk to you about Too Damn Perfect.

In some ways, it’s nice to have a “nemesis”. It gives you an external source that you can focus your attention on, someone who you can put all the blame on. He makes for an excellent excuse for everything that isn’t going right in your life.

‘Cuz in a lot of ways, that’s what you’re doing. You’re shirking your responsibility and putting it all on him. I don’t blame you. Who needs to scale Everest when Sir Hillary got there first? Right? Right?

You’re hardly alone though. Just about everyone has a nemesis like Too Damn Perfect. Hell, I had two; my brother and my friend Miles. Miles looked like the bastard love child of Rob Lowe and Hugh Grant. He was popular. He could sing. He played guitar. He could be goofy in that endearing way that women adore. He excelled at sports. He was the genuinely the nicest guy you could ever meet. As long as Miles was around, I would disappear into the woodwork; most of us would because well… c’mon. He was Miles. How the hell are you supposed to compete with that? I had women plow right through me to get to him when we would hang out.

If he weren’t one of my oldest friends, I’d totally hate him.

And you know what? It was completely one-sided. Miles had no idea (until he reads this anyway. Hey buddy!) that I resented the f--k out of him showing me up just by existing. As far as he was concerned, everything was great.

And to be clear: Miles was ALWAYS great to me. He was and is a wonderful person and wonderful friend. Which is important: if you ignored my self-centered emo bulls--t, everything WAS great. Every problem I had with Miles was all in my head.

I hope you see where this is going.

You’re expending an insane amount of mental energy and wangst on your nemesis. I imagine you start grinding your teeth every time he just glides his cool-ass down the hall like the cool dude he is and you’re stuck wondering what he’s doing right that you’re not.

Wanna know what Too Damn Perfect’s doing right? It’s in what he’s not doing.

He’s not spending all of his time griping about someone else. 

Cold hard truth: there will always be people who are better looking than you, smarter than you, smoother than you or more skilled than you. This is true whether you’re Pretty Bloody Average, Dr. NerdLove or Brad freaking Pitt. The sooner you quit complaining that these people exist – as though they are somehow responsible for your failures – the sooner you will actually start seeing them as the resources they are.

Y’see, after I started working on how to get better with women, I quickly realized that the best thing I could do is to surround myself with people who are better than me. I hung out with some of the best pick-up artists, smooth talkers and natural ladies men out there. And you know what? It made me better. To be sure, it could be damaging as hell to my ego to watch my friends snag the hottest women at the bar while I was going home alone to my computer and cats, but watching them drove me to improve myself. I had to make the mental switch from resenting them for their successes to being inspired to do better myself. If I had hung around with people at my own level or lower, I’d be enjoying the ego-strokes, sure… but I wouldn’t feel the need to push myself past my limits or to get out there and keep pounding away at my sticking points.

And this included Miles. Once I understood that my issues and shortcomings were MY responsibility, I began to see him in a new light. He wasn’t my nemesis. He was (and still is) my friend and an inspiration to me.

Too Damn Perfect isn’t c--kblocking you. He’s not letting you do all the work and then swooping in and stealing your girl out from under you. He’s not going out of his way to f--k with your head. He’s just hanging out, being a genuinely good guy… who happens to be everything you wish you were. If you’re pissed about how you can’t meet a girl because someone so cool is right next to you, then you have two choices: you can either try to escape Mr. Cool – which is the coward’s way out – or you can cowboy the f--k up and start making yourself cooler. The fact that TDP is awesome does not in any way limit your potential coolness. Only you are doing that. You’re giving him power he doesn’t have and attributing responsibilities for things that aren’t his fault.

You’re the one in control of your brain, PBA. Flip the switch. Reframe the situation. Too Damn Perfect isn’t holding you back or taking anything away from you. Once you realize that, you’ll come to realize that he’s one of the best potential friends you could have.

Good luck.

Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com